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h-l's history with indirect communication

Several years ago, there was a thread on alt.polyamory entitled "RJ's history with 'indirect' communication", in which

rmjwell tried to articulate what it was about indirect communication that bugged him so much. This rapidly turned into The Thread That Ate alt.poly. I remember it spanning a good 2000+ posts (Google Groups suggests 3157) and several months.

One of the things that came up in that thread was the idea of people saying one thing and meaning the polar opposite. An example was given of a visitor saying "What a nice, fresh breeze!" and meaning "Please close the window". That completely blew my mind. If a visitor in my house was to remark on the pleasantness of a breeze, I would either sit there continuing to enjoy the breeze alongside them, or offer to open the window wider. I certainly would never get any idea that the person was cold and wanted the window shut. The idea that someone could say something so utterly contrary broke my brain.

So, a few days ago, we received a letter from an elderly relative that is so full of indirect communication, we hardly know how to interpret it. So I'm asking all of livejournal to offer insights.

"Thank you for the parcel. You really need not in future send gifts at my age. I really do not need much, just a card or letter is enough."

What does this mean?
a) Please don't bother to send me a present in future. I already have more toiletries than I think I'll use in the rest of my life. any more. As it is, when I die, you'll find several cupboards full of unused toiletries.
b) Please don't bother to send me a present in future. I don't want you wasting your money on something I don't really want. You have no idea what I actually like, anyway.
c) Please don't send me a present in future. I would rather you took the time to keep in contact rather than spending money on items to assuage your guilt.
d) Please don't send me a present in future. I would rather you actually bothered to visit me rather than spending money on items.
e) I am going to ask you not to send me a present, but if you comply with this request, I will be offended.
f) All of the above?

"I have meals on wheels + home help 3 times a week. Twice for housework and one day they do shopping, all of which I pay for - so I can manage."

Why is she telling us this?
a) I am proud that I still live in my own house.
b) I am proud that I live independently of the State, unlike a lot of other elderly or disabled people.
c) I am annoyed that I have to pay for help, but too proud to try to claim it for free.
d) I am annoyed that I have to pay for help, because my relatives don't come to see me often enough.
e) All of the above?

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e) plus 'come visit me', but it might be wise to see exactly how many toiletries they have ;)

As to why, perhaps because she's embarrassed by attention but probably secretly likes it. Independence likely forms part of it too.

The problem with that is she lives in a small village that is almost completely inaccessible by public transport. The nearest railway station is a good 16 miles away and takes half an hour by taxi. As far as we know, any bus that exists is ridiculously infrequent and doesn't go all the way anyway - we need to look into that again. We both cycle, but I can't manage that sort of distance - and Richard's bike doesn't fold, so needs special permission to go on the train. We are carfree by choice and neither of us even has a driving license to hire a car for the day. The last time we visited her, we asked some friends to drive us, and then owed them favours for the next year. They no longer have a car that takes 4 passengers (they have a Smart car instead).

I suppose this all sounds like an excuse to her. Maybe it is. I find it extremely stressing to visit relatives at the best of times, because of my food issues and breathing allergies. People think you're being rude when you refuse hot drinks and biscuits - but I get way too sick from dairy products to risk even one biscuit. I've tried to explain this to numerous people on numerous occasions, but it doesn't get understood. The fact I used to be able to eat these things gets brought up, and I try countering with the information that I didn't used to be anywhere near this sensitive to dairy (I think I've been intolerant to it my whole life, but I only really noticed once I got old enough for my digestive system to stop producing lactose) - but it gets seen as me being faddy. So I much, much prefer it if people come to visit me, in an environment where I control the allergens. We *have* normal milk, and biscuits, and even ice cream that I can't eat - I've never forced anyone to have any of my "funny" milk unless there wasn't any normal in the house for some reason! But even asking people to come to us is seen as me being difficult :( And visiting us isn't possible for an elderly, frail relative, who has even fewer transport options available than we do.

Personally I just ask for hot water, unless they have fruit tea. Sure, you get a few odd looks but I simply ignore them.

I have to say I visit awkward to get to relatives infrequently, unless I especially like them. Then again, I have an awful lot of relatives, and I was always a bit hard like that. It becomes less of an issue as you become older, too.

Genuine question, not pedantic quibbling, because you know so much more about this than I do: lactose or lactase?

(And would you trust my biscuits?)

Lactase! Sorry, my brain was totally not functioning there.

Tough call on the biscuits. Probably? Then again, I doubt you'd be offended if I wanted to see a packet of something (either of the biscuit itself if shop bought or of something like margarine if homemade). Friends rarely are.

Heh, I'd probably automatically read the packet to you as I walked towards you with it, sort of thing. Packetreading is in my bones.

Do you mind if I ask what the parcel was? Because if those two sentances were adjacent it sounds like she took the parcel to be "charity" or patronising help in some way...

Yeah, it sounds like "please don't send any more useful, sensible presents like socks, underwear, and basic household items, as I am not broke and anyway won't use them because I prefer the stuff I get myself," with a side order of c, d and e.

It was a birthday present containing a Crabtree & Evelyn Rosewater bath set. It was two bottles with pump dispensers, one being a bath gel and the other a hand wash, I think, and they were packaged together in a white wire mesh thingy. She's made the right noises about Crabtree & Evelyn Rosewater stuff before, so we thought it would be appreciated. There was also a box of Fairtrade Belgian chocolates from Oxfam, and a three page letter with photos of us & the house recently.

To confuse things more and takeing in to account the mention of a letter being enough there is one opption you missed, she could be saying
"I don't want pressants I want Gossip."

The second one is impossible to answer without knowing the person.

I read A&B from Sentence 1, and don't think I know enough about the relative in question to properly infer in the case of Sentence 2.

I'm also empathizing heavily here. I have (and have had) relatives who I am certain have no idea how passive-aggressive their phrasing is, and I work very hard to avoid falling into those same patterns. Unfortunately, this tends to backfire at the worst possible moments.

1c. I don't like what you get for me, and I don't need practical presents. But you better not stop remembering me at Xmas. But in my family, it would be more likely to mean b - "Don't you bother buying things for me because you don't get the right stuff. But my other son, look at the wonderful thing he got me."

2 a, c, possibly d. Also, "Don't you get discussing me with each other and decide I should move into an institution or move in with you. I am JUST FINE HERE thank you very much."

The juxtaposition of those two parts of the letters suggests to me that she may feel that the gifts are "charity" and that she doesn't need that charity (or really could use it but it's humiliating to admit that so she asserts otherwise).

Mostly I think any of the first list could be true--if I knew the person I might have more of a clue.

In the second case it really might just be a reassurance that she's okay and is taking care of her self--maybe a bit of pride there, but I don't sense any annoyance (unless she's had a tendency to whine about this before.)

If this is who I think it is... then the answer is:
* Do not send flowers or plants, she leaves them outside because they clutter up the house (even when sent as a planted basket or vase arrangement)
* Do not send toiletries, however nice or expensive, she doesn't use them (even rose and lavender scented ones) but instead recycles them to other people
* Do not send ornaments, jewellery or other gifts, she has a house full of clutter
* Do not send chocolates, she complains every time that they make her put on weight
* Do not send book tokens, or books, even in large print. She doesn't particularly enjoy reading, and regularly revisits the same authors again and again from the mobile library
***DO visit more often, she wants company, even if it is just to go over the old times more often (except when she's watching TV, in which case beare you interrrupt Countdown on full volume with the subtitles on)

This year I have completely and utterly run out of ideas for what to send. I have one last resort (coupled with a visit), but I have largely failed to have any inspiration strike. I think the comment about home helps and meals on wheels is simply factual - she is comfortably off and she lacks for little except more company.

I hope this helps - I'll try to pop over and see her at Christmas depending on what other's plans are, so we can stagger visits.
PS: I know I still owe Richard a 30th birthday present - inspiration has utterly failed to strike on that too - HELP!

No one ever knows what to buy Richard. Basically, the only thing he actually needs is more time. He has plenty of cool tools / toys / games & books already, he just doesn't have enough time to play with them all. Also, he specifically dislikes several things that are usual gifts. He intensely dislikes artificial smells on humans (so any kind of perfumed toiletries are out), and he doesn't enjoy fiction At All, so any fiction people give him immediately gets regifted to me.

If you really want to get him something, I'm thinking a gift voucher for Evans Cycles would be a good idea. He needs a cycling jacket. But it's the sort of thing he needs to physically go into the shop and try on - I can't predict what shape or style he'll find comfortable. If you send him a voucher, that might provoke him into finally going there! Evans is the closest cycling shop to where we live. I don't know for certain that they do gift vouchers, but it's a big enough chain that I suspect they might.

Ooh, but I forgot to say DO send more letters and updates, especially large printed ones she can read relatively easily. She LOVES receiving and replying to letters.

But she always writes the same thing! That's what finally made us realise it was indirect communication! Took, um, four letters of the same sentiments in almost exactly the same wording before we realised.

She must think we're really thick, but neither of us get indirect communication at all. (Although, ever since I said that, my friends take great glee in pointing out any time I say something like "I wouldn't mind some juice right now" instead of "When you get yourself a drink, could you get me some juice?"). I am, however, an expert on geek flirting ("Hi. Do you want to go out with me? It's ok if you just want to stay friends.") and geek answer syndrome ("Not sure if you were looking for advice, but if you were...").

Bah. Humans.

Easy - stick to the factual simple stuff. "My lecturing is going very well and my students are doing xyz. Richard is very busy at the weekend in his workshop, doesn't he take after his father..." etc etc :)

She and I gave up exchanging presents a few years ago, although I feel honour bound to send *something* each year, it's getting harder and harder to find a suitable anodyne solution. The bed in her spare room is literally piled high with present she's received and recycles to other people :(

I have emailed Richard this evening - want to meet up over Xmas / New Year?

Sorry for the multiple replies... but:
If you do choose not to visit then she will never cease to remind you that Someone Else managed it, despite the greater distance blah blah. She expects a visit, and will genuinely have no idea how difficult it is for you to get there by any transport means, she assumes we all have easy transport access, sorry :(

Once she did say "ooh, you don't need to visit at Christmas" and then spent months afterwards complaining that everyone else came but that those specific people didn't bother. Somehow you'll need to fight the trains / taxis / public transport issues and get round this one.

I have enough trouble thinking of gifts I want at my age (43), that I can sympathize with asking people not to send things, especially if she's particular about scents, colors, and/or fabrics. In my case, chocolate is always good, but she may have dietary restrictions or similar.

I would read that as a request for more letters, either gossip if there is some, or just chatty "hi, we're doing well here, I really like my tricycle and Richard and I rode to thus-and-such last Saturday" stuff.

That said, I'm assuming that you have reason to believe this is indirect communication, because the first part, at least, seems fairly direct to me. With "a card or letter is enough" being to make clear that she isn't saying "don't darken my door," just "don't clutter my shelves."

I'm afraid I have no idea at all.

My guess would be "A" and then "D", with a little bit of "B" thrown in.

I would think that this is a relative who would really, really like weekly phone calls, but is at a point in his or her life that physical things are pretty much useless.

yeah. i am projecting from my grandmother, here, but i'm reading a "if you buy me actual *things* then you will just have to clean them out of my apartment after i die because i am ooooold." and a side dash of "please keep writing me, i like the letters and the pictures".

Without knowing her, any or all of the above, but my guess is "I'd like letters or cards more often and I'm not really bothered about getting stuff."

Those seem like two different phenomenon. The letter... I honestly wouldn't know how to interpret either bits of it. Any of your options seem like they could be valid.

The pre-amble example seems like it would depend a lot on tone.

I think I would be most likely, given the paucity of good solid information in the way the letter was worded, go with the assumption that she is finding life pretty trying right now but has too much pride to ask or accept help. But I'm not sure. Or perhaps she's hinting that money is more useful than cash. (??)

Well I don't know. I'm not sure why you are so sure that it is "indirect" communication. I think that to be surmising that, you must be going partly on what you know of her and your past history (with her or the family culture generally), and not from the letter itself. Because, OK, there is not enough background there for you to be sure of the background, but if I got that letter, I would take the presents part at face value: she doesn't want any more presents. There could be lots of reasons why, but without some other background to make me suspicious, I would just think "OK fair enough". It seems quite a direct communication to me!

Now of course my tendency to think this is partly because in my family if someone said "I don't need any presents now" they probably would simply mean it. I could very well imagine someone thinking "I already have more toiletries than I think I'll use in the rest of my life" and/or "I don't want you wasting your money on something I don't really want." (This would be very similar to how I think myself.) But if the other person didn't spell that out, then I wouldn't necessarily think there was some other subtext I was supposed to guess - although I can see it would be reassuring to you to have more of a sense of certainty about where she's coming from.

With the "I can manage" thing - again I wouldn't necessarily assume some subtext particularly aimed at you. From my experience of being around people of the generation whose contemporaries are getting frail, the degree to which they can "manage" is (understandably and naturally!) a MAJOR theme, which comes up in conversation regularly, especially with people who they think of as caring about them. It can have lots of backgrounds and subtexts like "And I'm anxious about how much longer this will still be the case", or "And I'm very lucky", or "And I feel a sense of satisfaction in still having my independence at my age". But just the fact that she's mentioning it, I wouldn't take as necessarily meaning any one of those. It could just mean "I am writing to someone who cares about me, and I assume they will want to know how I'm doing, especially as some other people in my situation might not be doing as well as I am".

If this is someone you care about in a loving way aside from being a "duty relative", then (as others up-thread have suggested) in your position I would seriously consider starting to write to her regularly (if you don't already do that), at some frequency which doesn't seem too onerous to you. Like once a month, or if you were up for it then more often. (But err on the side of caution and reliability - don't set up a regular routine which is an effort for you to do, and then miss one when she's started to expect them.) With just general chat about your life, as uncensored as you feel happy sending to her, similar to what you might post to us here on LJ. Without even knowing her I would predict with about 90% certainty that she would be pleased by that. And

blackindigo - who I gather does know her - has specifically said that she loves getting letters.

Even if she does regret you not visiting, and even if she never really spells out to you how much pleasure she gets from the letters, odds on you will be talked about favourably behind your back. "And I had a letter from my... [niece or whatever you are], she's been doing [whatever]".

If it's then still bothering you that you still would like to send her presents, then you could say that too - once. "I got the message - you don't want presents - but I still have the wish to send you presents, so do let me know if there's something you do want at some point". But recognise that may be your pleasure and your agenda rather than hers.

My 2p - hope that was useful

if she keeps saying the same things maybe the subtext is that she's bored and doesn't have much elese to talk about?
My Gran got fed up with being given yet more things by the time she was 90 and living in shelterd houseing - so consumable presents like food and books worked best. I mostly got her good coffee.

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h-l's history with indirect communication

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