Geeks and Asperger's Syndrome.

[baratron]

This is an interesting article about the increase in cases of autism and Asperger's Syndrome in Silicon Valley. It's quite well-written, but flawed in that although it states a couple of times that autism and Asperger's are not the same thing, in other places it conflates them.

I know a couple of people who have been diagnosed with Asperger's, and a couple of other people who haven't, but who have noticeable characteristics of it. I also have a friend and a cousin with "traditional" autism. Now, it has been obvious to me for some time that Aspies have a extreme case of what could be considered "geek traits". Many of these traits are not in themselves "bad" - it only becomes problematic for people who have all of them together. As Asperger's or "high-functioning autism" is a social disability associated with people of normal to high intelligence, people with Asperger's can easily learn social rules, given the right help. Whereas "traditional" autism (I can't remember the name of the psych who's associated with it) is a mental handicap/retardation/learning disability (pick the term which offends you least), and while people with it may eventually be able to function fairly normally most of the time, they will require a lot of specialised therapy, and will always be "retarded". So it bothers me immensely to see the conflation of Asperger's with "traditional" autism. I can see how it's useful to regard them as similar, but I suspect they have very different etiologies.

Hrumph. Anyway, at the bottom of that article, there is a test which some apparent expert in autism has written to test for Asperger's (his name is Simon Baron-Cohen - do you think he's related to Sacha?), and lots of people have been giving their scores for it. Apparently scores over 32 mean you probably have Asperger's Syndrome , a "normal" score is about 16, and the average for scientists is 18.5. I scored 9. Go me, the tremendous marvel of neurotypicality! *snort* *snigger* *looks at the various prescriptions for psychoactive drugs scattered through the flat*

Bit of a stupid test, if you ask me. For a start, you have to distinguish between "definitely agree" and "slightly agree", and yet they're counted the same in scoring - why have two possible ways of saying that you agree if you're not going to use them? And there definitely should've been a handy web-form for calculating your score - I suspect that the reason so many of my friends have been scoring in the high-20s is that you need to be pretty damn geeky to be bothered to go through all those calculations. But below the cut-tag are the exciting borderline-autistic character traits I have, complete with sarcastic comments:

I definitely agreed to:
43. I like to plan any activities I participate in carefully.

I somewhat agreed to:
4. I frequently get so strongly absorbed in one thing that I lose sight of other things.
5. I often notice small sounds when others do not.
6. I usually notice car number plates or similar strings of information.
12. I tend to notice details that others do not.
46. New situations make me anxious.

I somewhat disagreed to:
24. I would rather go to the theatre than a museum.
25. It does not upset me if my daily routine is disturbed.
39. People often tell me that I keep going on and on about the same thing.
49. I am not very good at remembering other people's date of birth.

But, 4 and 5 are typical character traits of gifted children which are often mistaken for signs of pathology. And my agreement with 43 and 46, and disagreement with 25, all stem from my Generalised Anxiety Disorder, where I worry about bloody everything all the bloody time, and so over-plan everything to try to make sure I don't get unpleasantly surprised.

Okay - so let's take 24 - I'd rather go to the theatre than a museum. Assuming that what they're saying here is that the theatre is "social" and a museum is not - what a load of bollocks that is! Going to the theatre is passive entertainment - you sit there and watch a play, and maybe afterwards you talk about it with your friends. Going to a museum is interactive entertainment - you go and look at the geology exhibit, and you call your friends over to see the cool rock you found, and maybe one of your friends is running ahead because volcanoes are not his thing, but then he comes back to tell you to come quickly and see the huge stuffed wildebeest - how is that not a social activity? Duh! ("Oh my God! There's a lifesize model of a blue whale in here!"). And remembering other people's birthdays (49) is very important to me as a part of keeping friendships and socialising - I really enjoy buying or otherwise obtaining presents for people, and get a huge amount of pleasure from gift-giving - so it's fundamentally important to me to know when a good opportunity is to give something without the other person getting embarrassed. I couldn't tell you how old someone is or what year they were born in, because that sort of information isn't important to me - but I do like to know when to give them something!

So that only leaves 6, 12 and 39 as "possible indications of autism". Well, I'd call 6 and 12 "being observant" - and 39 being the fact that I am very interested in the Wildhearts and The Sims - put me with people who like that band or game and they won't ever complain about me going on about the same thing! So, if I've managed to discount pretty much all of the 9 things I scored as not really what they were talking about - what the hell would that leave my score as, if 16 is "normal"? Ridiculously well-adjusted? And that, as I have already pointed out, would be laughable.

My point, if I have one, is that there is definitely a link between geek traits and Asperger's Syndrome, but not all geeks have Asperger's Syndrome or are at risk of having children with it. And to take having a lot of geekish traits as an indication that there is something wrong with you would be ridiculous - as I said, the traits are not in themselves bad - it's only a problem if you have them to an extreme level. Something I believe quite strongly is that you can meet the diagnostic criteria for a disorder without necessarily needing to "get help" - it is only if the disorder-identifying criteria are causing you distress that "getting help" is a good idea. And finally, it's very possible to be a geek and also well-socialised - or at least able to fake it pretty well. I definitely have trouble getting on with non-geeks - but I somehow learned how to bluff, at least in casual interactions.

Autism Quotient, my arse!

Comments

[johnckirk.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I had a look at that quiz, but I couldn't be bothered to fill it in. That's partly because of the manual process (as you commented), and also because my answer to lots of them would be "it depends".

E.g. "I prefer to do things with others rather than on my own" - what things? I prefer to write programs on my own, but I prefer to watch TV with friends.

"I would rather go to a library than a party" - depends on the library (e.g. the ICSF library is a place to chat, play games, and watch videos, rather than a place of absolute silence), and the party (sitting around chatting to friends is good, dancing to loud music is bad).

[firecat]

But below the cut-tag are the exciting borderline-autistic character traits I have, complete with sarcastic comments:

Quibble: I don't think that the test makers were suggesting those traits exist only in borderline autistic people. I think they were suggesting that if one had a great many of those traits, the person might count as borderline autistic.

Frankly, I think the world would be a better place if more people exhibited more of those traits.

(PS: I scored 14, but a decade ago I probably would have scored in the borderline autistic range, because of my anxiety disorder.)

[griffen.livejournal.com]

Well, I scored 41, and even eliminating the questions where the "appropriate" answer (i.e. a response that indicated HFA/AS) could be attributed to my ADHD, I still wound up with a 38.

I discovered something last night, too, when I was at a friend's birthday party: my extroversion is situational. I'm only an extrovert when I'm around people that I already know and can trust. Last night I was at a club with a bunch of people I didn't know very well, and of course my friend was circulating because it was his birthday, and I felt very alone and very nervous and all I wanted to do was go home and get away from all these people.

In other words, I wanted to be alone. Me, the pathologic extrovert.

How's that for weird?

I think the test is pretty accurate. Asperger's is part of the autism *spectrum*, which is probably why they seem to conflate the two. NLD is also. Who knows, I may wind up finding out that I have Asperger's when I finally get formally assessed on Wednesday. Wouldn't that be interesting. :(

They may use "slightly/definitely agree" when someone formally assesses the test results to weight certain segments of the disorder and their severity. It's probably been watered down for this article somewhat because, as you said, it's already complicated enough for the general public to process. Any more calculations and probably a lot more people would give up on it.

[inquis.livejournal.com]

Last night I was at a club with a bunch of people I didn't know very well, and of course my friend was circulating because it was his birthday, and I felt very alone and very nervous and all I wanted to do was go home and get away from all these people.

I totally know that feeling. I get just like that when in a group of people I don't know very well, but with people I know (or in a roleplaying situation where I'm not having to actually be me) I am extremely social.

I don't think that test was very useful - questions like whether one would rather be at a party or a library are so weird - I work in a library and love it, I'd much rather work in a library situation than a party situation, but having said that I'd rather party most times because they aren't that frequent an occurrence - I couldn't party 24/7

I scored a very average 13 though.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

I think there would've been a simple solution, though - score 1 for each slightly agree/disagree and score 2 for each definitely agree/disagree. And then give the average score as 2 x the one that was given there. Mind you, I am a geek :)

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

AS is not exactly the same as HFA, although both are autistic spectrum disorders. And no, it is not merely a "social" disability, although I wonder sometimes if there is not some social syndrome which mimics its effects. It is a mental processing disability, and the fact that AS/HFA people can learn to overcome their disability -- or more accurately, to act "as if" their disability doesn't exist -- doesn't make it any less of one. They still have to consciously think about things that for most people are automatic, and will have to do so the rest of their lives.

I'm sorry if this sounds defensive. I live with these issues every single day in the trenches. I have an HFA son -- diagnosed by a professional working in the field.

My son views the world in ways that are utterly alien to me. I have to learn to "get inside" his head as much as I can, because what is reality for him doesn't always map to anyone else's.

I love my son, and have hopes that, with proper therapy, he can do amazing things in the world (for those of you familiar with the work of Dr. Temple Grandin, she is one of my heroes). I honestly believe that the insights which his different view of reality bring him could someday change the world.

It's just hard sledding.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

Ah, don't worry about sounding defensive. I'm on your side - like I said, I have friends with Asperger's, and even a friend with "traditional" autism. (He has times where dealing with people gets too much and he has to suddenly go home or end the phone call, and he spends hours each week under the kitchen sink).

Interesting that you say AS and HFA aren't the same thing - the impression I got from trawling the UK Autism Society's web site a while ago was that the two terms were used interchangably for the same thing. So what's the difference?

I think...

[thekumquat.livejournal.com]

...the difference between AS and high-functioning autism is the selection of autistic-type symptoms; AS people being interested in other people (wanting friends) but not able to interpret social signals well, whereas high-functioning autists aren't interested in people, but may be of otherwise normal intelligence. So if I've got that right, someone with Asperger's would want friends and relationships to an extent, while someone with HFA wouldn't care.

A friend's son recently got diagnosed with AS, which suddenly made perfect sense, although until then everyone just thought he had a particularly bad case of "Kevin the teenager". I've only known a couple people with severe autism and there was a huge contrast - one lad could read and so on but there was zero interaction with you at all, except as an object in the way, like a chair.

Although I think they all overlap and the diagnosis may well depend on the particular diagnoser and the symtoms which happen to show during testing - don't quote me on any of this!

[juudes.livejournal.com]

Going to the theatre is passive entertainment - you sit there and watch a play, and maybe afterwards you talk about it with your friends.

I didn't bother to do the test, but this question struck a chord with me. I never (well ok, once in the last 15 years) go to the theatre, because I can't stand the unpredictability. I have a very low embarrassment threshhold, and the idea that at any moment someone could forget their lines, or corpse, or get heckled, or other members of the audience could walk out, just makes me go hot and cold. So I don't go, because I would spend the whole time anxiously fretting. (I don't much enjoy live music, either.) Maybe it's the dislike of unpredictability and structure that the test is getting at, rather than some measure of the sociability of the activity?

[jhaelan.livejournal.com]

These tests play with memes, like emotions or traits or situations, in a quite fasinating fashion...

Most of the professional character tests I've taken part in remind you (often again and again) that they only want your immediate (instinctive) reaction and anything more actually spoils the results.

Hmm. Guess I'm kind of saying that you could be right about what they're asking, but you can't really tell without analysing the analysis of the results.

[jhaelan.livejournal.com]

Just wandered through the test and scored 24; only slightly "above average" for a computer science practicioner.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

Wow... I'm amazed. I've never heard anyone say that before. I'm quite sensitive myself, and get embarrassed for other people in embarrassing situations - but I've certainly never worried about people in a play forgetting their lines, unless I was directing the play! Even in the most amateurish of things I've been involved with, we always had someone to act as a prompter, so it's just not something I've thought of.

You could be right with that interpretation of the question, though. More interpretation would've really helped the test.

[nmc.livejournal.com]

I responded to this, indirectly, in griffen's journal, but I figured I'd respond here, too.

I really think they should have included how long it took you to score that test in the test. Scoring my answers took nearly a half hour (OK, 23 is "add a point if you agree", I agreed with 23. Wait, was this a point if you agree or disagree? Oh, right, agree. OK. One point. Next. Wait, what question am I on? Oh, right, 24.).

Also, as I pointed out in Grif's journal, the "social" questions were particularly bad. Is a "social situation" like a departmental party? A game of disc golf with some friends? Going to a club? Going to a party where you don't know anyone? Going to a party where you know everyone? A date? I have very, very different reactions to each of these. Are the conversations I may or may not be having difficulty maintaining with strangers, friends, coworkers, bosses, people I respect, people I don't respect? Those are also very different things for me, with gradients even internally.

Just as a data point, I initially scored a 14. If I take out the questions I scored points on that were these unfortunately worded social questions (each of which had a case where I would have answered differently), I score a 6 (1, 4, 16, 22, 23, and 30). Which I think shows the usefulness of statistics in predicting the scores of individual geeks.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I interpreted all the "social" questions to mean situations where I was with people I know reasonably well - in the sense of "do you have trouble in social situations even with friends?". Which would be an issue for people with most forms of autism. If I interpreted a lot more of the questions as being around making small talk with people I don't know, then I would have scored way higher.