Notice

[baratron]

Following Some Events at BiCon, there are various rants taking place in various places about pronouns for transgendered people and how the hell are you supposed to know if they're transgender if they're wearing normal clothes? Here is my comment:

As a cisgendered female, I have the right to wear trousers, t-shirts, no makeup and stompy boots. Why should a transgendered female have to dress any differently?

Or in other words, "It's a girl's t-shirt".

Comments

[nmg.livejournal.com]

Boggle. Why does it matter whether you can tell that they're transgendered? It isn't even that most people's records of successfully telling the gender of cisgendered folk is 100%...

[kyte.livejournal.com]

I have a cisgendered female friend who is regularly mistaken for a bloke, even on the telephone.

Not having been to BiCon, I don't know what happened. However, my two-penn'orth is that everyone should wear the clothing they are happiest in. However, if you don't cue people in to your gender, you shouldn't be too surprised or offended if people use the wrong pronoun.

Of course, you and I are unlikely to be taken as male, whatever we wear!

[ailbhe]

I love that particular strip.

I do see that it's hard to tell, sometimes, but really, it's hard to tell anyway, sometimes, and one accepts someone's word for it, apologises, and moves on, using the correct pronouns. I know enough cisgendered women who have been mistaken for men, and vice versa, to think blaming one's confusion on someone's transness is, er, bollocks.

[softfruit.livejournal.com]

Quite.

Given one of the Pert Tickler Cases in question, amongst the ways one might be supposed to know is if you've spent a reasonable amount of time with that person already and been surrounded by people using the appropriate labels/pronouns. Your peer group's choice of language is like a gentle cluestick.

[redbird]

I have no idea of what happened at BiCon, but the question I'd ask in return is "Why the hell are you supposed to care if they're transgender?" If someone seems to be signalling female or I think they are, I will use feminine pronouns until/unless they ask me otherwise or it becomes clear for other reasons that different pronouns are appropriate. Similarly for someone who I read as male. If I have no idea, I will probably duck the issue (it's possible to avoid pronouns if you know a person's name, and "you" isn't gendered in English).

Beyond that, if someone calls me "sir" I don't usually bother to correct them: but that's from my comfort zone as a cisgendered person, but one who cares less than average about her own gender. I have no problem with someone, cis or trans, saying "that's 'she'" or "actually, it's Mr. Doe." Regardless of what they're wearing.

[kyte.livejournal.com]

From the sounds of it, it's more a general politeness thing than a gender or trans one.

It behooves all of us to make an effort to treat other people nicely. That includes calling people by the appropriate pronouns, but also includes allowing for people's mistakes.

On a practical note, it seems that the event organisers could possibly train their people better on such matters. On the other hand, if you present in an androgynous way, it's not surprising if people get the wrong gender some of the time. If you rant at someone every time, it's not doing anyone any favours, least of all yourself.

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

when i first read this I assumed the person was upset with me?

since i am so often the but of peoples issues

what i would have preferred is that these issues had been brought up at Bicon so we could talk about it. I think I could at lest be able to talk through with them their issues, because I am not worried if people refer to me as a man, their simply mistaken. I can understand why they might make the mistake and I can make suggestions as how to deal with this better in the future

[the-siobhan.livejournal.com]

I think we should just get rid of gendered honourifics entirely. Call everybody "sir" (or equivalent) and be done with it.

This may make me staggeringly unpopular..

[syllopsium.livejournal.com]

Additionally may also be slightly surprising given some of the things I wear, and various background things.

In my opinion :

Wear what you want
If someone appears to be strongly female gendered, refer to them as female.
If someone appears to be strongly male gendered, refer to them as male.
If it is debateable, play the pronoun game.
Sometimes this will be adjusted according to environment.

If, after that, you as a cis/transgendered person are misidentified and this is upsetting, this is *your problem*. If the person misidentifying you is corrected, but maliciously continues to misidentify you, this is their problem.

This really sucks if it is difficult to present yourself in the way you would prefer to be presented. Unfortunately the reality is that the world will not revolve around you, and that it's easier for one person to become comfortable with their own gender.

Having said the above, the general populace should be more accepting of non binary gender. It would make a lot of people much more comfortable with their assigned sex and gender mix.