helen-louise&#39;s journal

There are a couple of issues here. Firstly, I know of more than a few cisgendered people who get clocked with the wrong pronoun. My partner Richard has a rather impressive beard (http://pics.livejournal.com/baratron/pic/0015x0tb/g28), but accompanied by long hair and a waist, which is unusual in men. Personally, I'm not sure how anyone could see "person with a beard (http://pics.livejournal.com/baratron/pic/0014s0cp/g28)" and not think "male", but he gets called "Madam" all the time. Especially when I'm with him and visibly being a couple - the two of us are often referred to as "Ladies", even by people who can see the front! While I'm delighted there are so many lesbian-aware customer service people, in this case we're not actually a same-sex couple! Secondly, while the wrong pronoun is amusing or just annoying for a cisgendered person, it is actively offensive for a lot of transgendered people. It leads them to self-doubt important things - even their own identities.

My belief is that the best approach is to simply avoid gender-identifying words until you have been told the correct one by the person in question. I've forgotten where this story came from - a friend of a friend's livejournal one day when I was bored and following links. The person who wrote the entry is a transwoman who currently has an ambiguous gender presentation. She explains how she was visiting a part of North America that is much colder than where she is from, so went into a shop to buy gloves for herself. It was a large shop and she was unfamiliar with its layout, and more to the point she wasn't sure whether gloves would be counted as "Clothing" or "Accessories". So she asked a member of staff "Where could I find gloves?". The member of staff clearly clocked her unusual appearance, but then told her the locations of the men's, the women's and the children's gloves. This is, in so many ways, the right answer. Because a person might be buying gloves for themselves, or they might not.

One of the problems is a lack of third gender honorific. We have "Sir" and "Madam", both clearly attached to one of the binary genders.

36 has written before about how they think "Sir-Madam" is the perfect third gender honorific, but I can see that offending some because Your Transperson May Vary. If I was in a customer service job, I would prefer to avoid honorifics for everyone to avoid getting them wrong, and simply being extremely polite. After all, the second person "you" is ungendered. "Good evening, how many I help you?" is, in my opinion, polite enough that a person wouldn't notice the lack of sir or madam.

I have to admit that, being a fan of Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series, where there are three genders: male, female and hermaphrodite, I do often find myself thinking life would be so much simpler if we had "Sir, Madam, or Honourable Herm" :)

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36.livejournal.com

Did I say that? I tend to prefer no honorifics or neutrals like citizen :)

I have said that androgynous people tend to get 'sir-madam' due to the speaker changing their mind part way, and in an amusing way that's strangely appropriate. But I don't think I was suggesting it seriously -- I'm a proponent of gender neutral language in general.

I also get an honorific of '...then' as in 'can I help you sir', 'can I help you madam', 'can I help you ...then' :)

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Having thought about it some more, I've written a bit about BiCon versus the Real World below (http://baratron.livejournal.com/571493.html?thread=2370917#t2370917).

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nmg.livejournal.com

Boggle. Why does it matter whether you can tell that they're transgendered? It isn't even that most people's records of successfully telling the gender of cisgendered folk is 100%...

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True. But while the wrong pronoun is amusing or just annoying for a cisgendered person, it is actively offensive for a lot of transgendered people. It brings back many years of memories of being treated The Wrong Way.

Some people have been arguing that a person should wear clothing appropriate to their gender to clue in others as to what their gender is - but in doing so, they are suggesting long skirts and lots of make up (a nice return to 1950s style gender roles). My point is that all of the clothing I wear comes from the "women's" clothing department, therefore it is women's clothing. If you are not a person who feels comfortable in make up, why should you put some on to make people realise you're female? And, to be perfectly honest, if we're dealing with goths and bisexuals - how the hell would make up or skirts even help?

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kyte.livejournal.com

I have a cisgendered female friend who is regularly mistaken for a bloke, even on the telephone.

Not having been to BiCon, I don't know what happened. However, my two-penn'orth is that everyone should wear the clothing they are happiest in. However, if you don't cue people in to your gender, you shouldn't be too surprised or offended if people use the wrong pronoun.

Of course, you and I are unlikely to be taken as male, whatever we wear!

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damerell.livejournal.com

I wonder if we are thinking of the same person - I would say that she gets it _especially_ on the phone, given that you have to be a bit dim to miss it in real life - especially considering the height us lesser mortals' heads are at. :-)

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kyte.livejournal.com

*grins*

It may well be the same person - are you thinking of one with a broad Wigan accent? :-)

If so, she's quite good at not displaying her boobs. (Shame ;>)

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damerell.livejournal.com

I admit she dresses to minimise the quote inflatable battering ram effect unquote but hiding them from all but the least observant would be impossible.

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redbird

I'm a cisgendered woman who is sometimes taken for a bloke (e.g., called "sir" or "señor" by people on the street, at deli counters, and such), until they hear my voice [almost never on the phone]. That userpic is me, almost exactly a year ago.

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ailbhe

I love that particular strip.

I do see that it's hard to tell, sometimes, but really, it's hard to tell anyway, sometimes, and one accepts someone's word for it, apologises, and moves on, using the correct pronouns. I know enough cisgendered women who have been mistaken for men, and vice versa, to think blaming one's confusion on someone's transness is, er, bollocks.

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softfruit.livejournal.com

Quite.

Given one of the Pert Tickler Cases in question, amongst the ways one might be supposed to know is if you've spent a reasonable amount of time with that person already and been surrounded by people using the appropriate labels/pronouns. Your peer group's choice of language is like a gentle cluestick.

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ludy

yes - that's quite an important thing that shouldn't get lost in all the flaming and yelling isn't it

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I remember meeting Said Person at the first London BiFest - back in 1999, I think it was. I was new to the bisexual scene and rather confused by that person, as she did not seem particularly feminine but was wearing a lesbian necklace. Now, I had at this time knowingly met the grand total of two transsexuals in my life, but I was still sufficiently aware to say to

skibbley, who I'd known online for ages, "I'm a bit confused, I just met this person who I thought was a bloke but he was wearing a lesbian symbol?" and have him explain "That's $female_name, she's...". After that I knew the right pronoun and just... filed the differences by expanding my definition of "woman".

I'm not telling this story in the hope of getting extremely belated kudos for my Great Transgender Awareness. Actually, I think sensitivity towards other people is something that everyone can always improve on - you might think you've met people with every type of gender/race/sexuality/... presentation that exists, and then a new person comes along who doesn't fit in any of your existing boxes. Which is cool. People aren't supposed to fit in boxes.

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redbird

I have no idea of what happened at BiCon, but the question I'd ask in return is "Why the hell are you supposed to care if they're transgender?" If someone seems to be signalling female or I think they are, I will use feminine pronouns until/unless they ask me otherwise or it becomes clear for other reasons that different pronouns are appropriate. Similarly for someone who I read as male. If I have no idea, I will probably duck the issue (it's possible to avoid pronouns if you know a person's name, and "you" isn't gendered in English).

Beyond that, if someone calls me "sir" I don't usually bother to correct them: but that's from my comfort zone as a cisgendered person, but one who cares less than average about her own gender. I have no problem with someone, cis or trans, saying "that's 'she'" or "actually, it's Mr. Doe." Regardless of what they're wearing.

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I've been trying to avoid linking to the flamefest of doom, which is unfortunate because it does, at least, provide the context. The basic idea is a person sitting on a registration desk talking to another person who happens to be wearing "ungendered" clothing - let's say, jeans and a t-shirt. The person on the desk gets the gender of the other person wrong, and the other person is upset because they are transsexual and it is hurtful to be called by the wrong pronoun.

I believe that in the incident related, if it has been related correctly, both people behaved badly. The person in gender-neutral clothing apparently ranted about her pronoun for some time in a way which made the person on the desk upset too, and in return the person on the desk then posted in their livejournal, in a friends-locked entry, something along the lines of "well how the hell was I supposed to know she was transgendered?". This then developed into a flamewar which I was fortunately not privy to, and then another rant/flamewar that is public.

I personally tend to think that someone's current gender status is far more important than any former statuses they may have had. Some trans people agree with this, others don't - and we all have the right to disagree. The question is not so much "Why should you care that they are transgender?" (because I don't care very much, except in terms of understanding the person's history) but more "How are you supposed to get the pronoun right for people of ambiguous appearance?". For me, this has a simple answer - use ungendered language such as "you" until you're told. You could also look at the name on someone's name badge, or ask one of their friends. Or... horror of horrors - ask the person! "I'm sorry to be clueless, but which pronoun do you prefer?".

See also my comment above about 1950s gender roles.

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As I've always understood it transsexual (or post-transsexual) people are not transgendered, they have a definite gender even if its not the one on their original birth certificate.

On the other hand I was somewhat surprised at the number of bicon attendees that identified as transgender:

softfruit reported in a recent comment that I can't find (and may therefore misquote) that at a previous Bicon 55% of attendees were female, 35% male and 20% transgender, which seemed to imply that not only that there were a lot of transgender people there but also that transgender did = those who were uncomfortable with either of the m or the f label. As it is there is a lot of apparent crossdressing or non-gendered dressing going on at a bicon and some people even have dual label name tags so I think we all need to be a bit tolerant of people mis-guessing our chosen pronoun.

That said I usually try and stick try and use whatever people I know want other to use, or where there is some reason to doubt like you try and stick to non-gendered pronouns. Apologies to anyone where I've got it wrong.

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crossdressing=transgender
as does drag queens, drag kings, transvestites, androgynes, m2f and ftm transexuals, genderqueer etc etc
transgender people are people who challenge 'traditional' assumptions around gender

as for transgendered I would like to know who transgendered them? I know i live ina disabling society that why I am disabled. I am less than half hearing but I'm not half deafened.

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Surely the only people who should label someone as 'transgender' is themselves? Certainly I don't need to know.

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bloody lj logged me out again !!!

i was giving the definition of transgender, I wasn't labelling anyone specifically as transgender

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bcholmes.livejournal.com

As I've always understood it transsexual (or post-transsexual) people are not transgendered

Unfortunately, there's no clear consensus on this point. Some transsexuals happily identify as transgendered. Some transsexuals agree that they fit under the broad transgendered umbrella, but feel that it obfuscates some of the important issues of transsexualism. And some transsexuals disagree strongly that transgendered is a word that applies to them.

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I now have a crazy mental image of something rather like a party political conference, but instead featuring trans* people. It opens with the national anthem of all member nations played backwards at the same time to subvert the dominant oppressionist patriarchy. Following that are several hours of arguments about whether the Party name should include Transsexual, Transexual, Transgender, Transgendered or just plain Trans. Chaos breaks out as a cisgendered ally stands up to speak on behalf of her shy grrlfriend, is outed as having been Born Female, and is thrown out to the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival. The Chairperson attempts to restore order by proposing to define what the party stands for. After failing to reach agreement even on the Peyple Born Peyple policy (as delegates to the conference include Non-Humyn Transpeyple), zie proposes to define what the party doesn't stand for. Pandemonium as an individual with long flowing hair, long painted fingernails, face make up, breasts, a dress, shaved legs and high heels stands up to speak, is referred to as "Madam" and spends the next 10 minutes explaining how he is perfectly happy being a bloke, thank you very much, he just dresses this way to feel more comfortable...

A person with more experience in the transsexual/transgender argument camp could possibly write an amusing script for a play along these lines. I will happily play the part of the cisgendered ally.

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softfruit.livejournal.com

*grin*

(takes out copyright on 'Dip Me In Cisgender And Throw Me To The Michigan Womyn' merchandise)

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I think I'd rather go to Michigan with you.

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btw this why we used transgender to avoid all these rows. Almost immediately a bunch of stealth loving transexuals started to label them selves as transgenderED and claim that transgender excluded drag, transvestites, cross-dressers in fact anyone else but them.

there not around anymore as soon as possible they dropped the identity transgendered and switch to stealth and gender privalage

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I can't remember this phase/use of words personally, but maybe I just wasn't around at the time.

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barakta

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bi-BLIO/ is the survey

softfruit is referring to I think.

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Unfortunately I'm not a member of this yahoo group so can't get check what is actually in the survey at the moment.

I thought I remembered the categories (m/f/tg) in the survey adding to 100% but would have been surprised if this was the case unless the survey only offered them as exclusive categories. In general that doesn't seem a good idea.

For that matter I don't see why transgender/transexual should be exclusive or inclusive of each other either:

Funnily enough my LGBT group at work is now calling itself the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender/sexual Group, which I also see a a bit silly (what is wrong with just using Trans?).

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barakta

I have no idea what that link was, I evidently had a cut and paste fail and wasn't paying attention this morning.

http://www.bicommunitynews.co.uk/extras/biblio_report_2004.pdf is the direct link to it.

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Thanks for this

barakta.

Having checked, the actual report is indeed more complex than the summary - and still simplifies - I quote:

Identity

Because of the way the question was worded, with space for people to self describe their gender, we categorised the responses in three broad ways: people who self-described as mostly to only male; people who self-described as mostly to only female; and people who self-described as transgendered, genderqueer, or gave a strong mix of gender terms.
Because of the way that people did this (e.g. “mostly female, trans”), these categories are not mutually exclusive, and therefore should not add to 100%

Gender

Female (mostly to only): 47%
Male (mostly to only): 36%
Trans / genderqueer: 19%

Many attendees wrote extra information around this question because they were unhappy with the categories given. For example, some people wrote ‘transgender’ or some variant upon the term; a mix of gender descriptions such as ‘effeminate male’; or words to indicate they resist the use of labels in this way, such as ‘fluid’ or ‘me’.

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transexual is a subset of transgender along with drag, crossdressing, transvestites, androgynes, femme men, butch women etc etc

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Only in the same sense that gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, BDSM, etc. are subsets of Queer.

Defining your our uber-category is fine but don't expect everyone you think is included to join.

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oh i agree the point was that nobody exclude others, tge current situation is that transexual call them selves transgender and some of them think it only applies to them. And transvestites/cross-dressers think of themselves as transgender but only include transexuals as those that have "gone all the way"

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softfruit.livejournal.com

Also on the resources page of the BCN website as a pdf document. The stats were from memory but I think showed that male+female=less than 100% and male+female+trans=more than 100%. And that of the popular gender blocs there are more women at the event than men.

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kyte.livejournal.com

From the sounds of it, it's more a general politeness thing than a gender or trans one.

It behooves all of us to make an effort to treat other people nicely. That includes calling people by the appropriate pronouns, but also includes allowing for people's mistakes.

On a practical note, it seems that the event organisers could possibly train their people better on such matters. On the other hand, if you present in an androgynous way, it's not surprising if people get the wrong gender some of the time. If you rant at someone every time, it's not doing anyone any favours, least of all yourself.

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quiet000001.livejournal.com

This is my take on it, too, based on what's presented in this post and the comments to it, that it's an issue of general politeness on the part of potentially both parties.

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when i first read this I assumed the person was upset with me?

since i am so often the but of peoples issues

what i would have preferred is that these issues had been brought up at Bicon so we could talk about it. I think I could at lest be able to talk through with them their issues, because I am not worried if people refer to me as a man, their simply mistaken. I can understand why they might make the mistake and I can make suggestions as how to deal with this better in the future

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the-siobhan.livejournal.com

I think we should just get rid of gendered honourifics entirely. Call everybody "sir" (or equivalent) and be done with it.

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syllopsium.livejournal.com

Additionally may also be slightly surprising given some of the things I wear, and various background things.

In my opinion :

Wear what you want
If someone appears to be strongly female gendered, refer to them as female.
If someone appears to be strongly male gendered, refer to them as male.
If it is debateable, play the pronoun game.
Sometimes this will be adjusted according to environment.

If, after that, you as a cis/transgendered person are misidentified and this is upsetting, this is *your problem*. If the person misidentifying you is corrected, but maliciously continues to misidentify you, this is their problem.

This really sucks if it is difficult to present yourself in the way you would prefer to be presented. Unfortunately the reality is that the world will not revolve around you, and that it's easier for one person to become comfortable with their own gender.

Having said the above, the general populace should be more accepting of non binary gender. It would make a lot of people much more comfortable with their assigned sex and gender mix.

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Having thought about it a bit more, I actually think that clothing may be a reasonable indicator of someone's gender - in the world outside BiCon! In the wider world, recognising that the majority of "normal" people only recognise two genders, people are more likely to dress in a more feminine or masculine way in an attempt to "pass" as one of them. Is it a good thing that people feel they need to pass? No, not really, but it's better than being beaten up physically or verbally.

At BiCon, using clothing to guess gender is absolutely useless. How many men wearing make up are there in the bi community? It's safe, we're accepting - feel free to wear nail varnish and eyeliner if that's the kind of guy you are! And I saw at least three men with strong male identities wearing dresses on Saturday night. A person could argue that drag is a transgender act, but to me it depends on whether the guy concerned is wearing the dress to explore being a woman/his feminine side or whether it's to emphasise his masculinity.

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so because i wear "men's clothes" i should be referred to as male???

if the police can cope why cant everyone else

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syllopsium.livejournal.com

That's not what I said.

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then i'm confused and please have my apologies
kate

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I wear men's socks. OH NOES I'M A SOCK TRANSVESTITE!

syllopsium said:
Wear what you want
If someone appears to be strongly female gendered, refer to them as female.
If someone appears to be strongly male gendered, refer to them as male.

Personally, I see you as strongly female gendered, so your clothing is as irrelevant as my socks. Which is the point I'd been trying to make in my original post :)

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