Impractical female clothing.

[baratron]

Today I was feeling very anxious and only managed to get out of bed at 3.30 pm. I was all foggy in the head and put on the bra I was wearing yesterday, totally forgetting that when I'm premenstrual, my breasts grow a cup size. As a result, by the time I was halfway to college and had been in the bra for 40 minutes or so, my left bosom was being squashed so thoroughly that it hurt like hell. (My criteria for pain is based on my gall bladder - the kind of pain the bra was causing was equivalent to the minor gall bladder rumbles that make me need to take Buscopan and/or paracetamol.) Not horrendous, but enough that I was considering painkillers - which for pain caused by a bra is ridiculous! So I tried to think carefully about what to do.

Going bra-less isn't an option. Unless I take special precautions with vests etc, my breasts are large enough that without a bra, complete strangers can see everything. I don't generally like for strangers to be able to make out the entire shape of my boobs, nipples and all. Continuing to wear that bra wasn't an option - it hurt too much. Undoing it wouldn't help because it was the cup size that was the problem, not the circumference. Going home to fetch my larger cup size bra wasn't an option, because it would take me at least half an hour for the round trip and I only just had enough time to get to college. So I decided to get off the train at Wimbledon and buy a bigger bra. There's a Marks & Spencer's next to the station, and I was hoping it was a proper M&S and not just a Simply Foods.

I was wrong. It was a Simply Foods. So I went round Centre Court (the indoor shopping centre) and the first place I could find that sold bras was an Ann Summers/Knickerbox combination store. Now, for those who don't know, Ann Summers is a particularly tacky British chain "sex" store that specialises in overpriced vibrators and tacky underwear that is hand-wash only and falls apart if you try to wear it for anything other than sex. In case you are particularly unobservant, I am the kind of geek girl who doesn't shave her body hair and wears plain black, sensible, supportive undergarments that do the job of holding up her bosom by clever engineering. I am not the kind of girl who wears frilly leopard skin bras with black lace, let alone pink leopard skin bras with red lace (ewww!).

Anyway. I went through the sale garments and bought the only 38E bra in the store. It was £12, down from £25, which is a joke. My Marks & Spencer's bras only cost £16 normally, and from an engineering point of view, are vastly superior. This stupid bra relies only on ouchy underwires to do the job - the straps are so thin as to be useless, the cups are so poorly shaped as to provide no support at all, and the back clip is just there to make the thing easier to put on rather than provide structural integrity. Also, it is made of insanely cheap artificial fibres (sweaty) rather than decent cotton (comfortable against sensitive skin). As already mentioned, it is hand wash only, which is a ridiculous for UNDERWEAR. I mean, I wear a bra every day unless I happen not to leave the house all day. Hand washing the things would take an hour or more out of each week, unless you are rich enough to own eight bras and do it once a month instead. (And I expect it would then take four hours). And hand washing something that is made of polyester and polyurethane is hilarious. We're not talking delicate, expensive fibres like satin or silk here, but cheap polymers.

Also, how do people wear underwired bras? Whenever I wear one, even a properly-fitted one rather than an underwired bra I grabbed because it was the only bra in my size, the wires dig into me whenever I stretch upwards, twist, or bend down to get an item. Having that happen 10 times in an evening was bad enough. Having it happen many times a day would drive me insane. I love that Marks & Spencer sell non-wired bras even in the largest sizes.

I hope I am not inundated with weird spam and comments as a result of this post. Oh well. I can always repost them for us all to laugh at.

Comments

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

I think with underwires a big part of it is getting one where the whole bra suits your shape, not just the size of it. I mean, leaving sagging out of the equation entirely, different people's breasts just naturally sit in different places on the chest wall, and so ANY bra, even if it ostensibly fits, where the wire/cup placement is set up for a different boob-chest arrangement, is likely to be uncomfortable because it'll be trying to push your breasts in or out or up or down or whatever.

I personally have had fantastic luck with Fantasie bras. Their 'every day' bra is kind of freaking ugly, but it's so comfortable and supportive I'm pretty sure I could wear it horseback riding. (Which is more than I can say for some sports bras I've tried.)

That said, I do also hand-wash my bras (or at least use a machine with a 'hand wash' cycle) because the bras that fit me best tend to cost upwards of 25ukp and I just can't afford to replace them. Machine washing makes the elastic wear faster, and also makes the underwires more prone to popping out and escaping.

So yes. Short version: Underwires seem to complicate the bra-fitting process, but some people find the support they offer more comfortable, once they've found a bra which actually fits them just so.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

I forgot to mention that I have a "lopsided" ribcage. Enough so that I was sent to the chest hospital for X-rays at a relatively young age. Somehow it still took until I was 17 before anyone noticed the scoliosis in my spine, although it's obvious on an X-ray if you know what shape things are supposed to be.

So the two sides of my chest are not parallel, and if I can get one cup of an underwired bra to sit right, almost certainly the other cup will be out of alignment. Then a wire will start to poke in the piece of my breast that goes under my armpit (see below (http://baratron.livejournal.com/580219.html?thread=2433403#t2433403)), and it gets very painful very quickly.

TOO MUCH INFORMATION!

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

That probably explains why you haven't found any comfortable underwire bras, then. :)

I'd imagine that if you went to an experienced corsetier/seamstress, they'd be able to make something custom fit for you, but if you're getting decent support from non-underwired bras then there's not much point.

Part of what's frustrating about the whole thing is that so many women put up with bras that fit badly or actually hurt, because they think that all bras just DO, and so there's little incentive for bra makers to rethink sizing considerations (perhaps something more complex than just cup and band size) and styles and so on.

[nitoda]

I wear underwired bras without difficulty. Most of the time. Until the wires start to escape from the channels they ought to stay in. When they do indeed start to hurt and the bra either gets repaired or tossed. There's a lot more to choosing a bra than sizing though, as your other commenter noted. I look at the shape of the cups and how they are engineered as well - certain styles just don't work for me. Hope your day improved ... ;-)

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

one of the reasons i don't wear bras is that all i seem to find in sizes vaguely approaching my circumference is under wired - which are horrible!!!

[hiddenpaw.livejournal.com]

Strange Idea, getting special cloaths for having sex in. Even during my single periods (Especialy so infact) by the time I get round to sex with anyone the cloaths I'm wearing have done thier job in terms of being sexy. If anything it's time for them to be coming off.

The further idea that cloaths for sexual activity don't need to be as hard wearing and are by dint of causng pain in odd possitions restrictive of movement also runtotaly contary to my exsperiences of sex where any cloths that may be warn get a very hard time of it and my partners and I end up in possitions that vary rarely come up in every day the rest of my life.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

You know, for "fantasy" play? French Maid's outfits have never really gone out of fashion (little black "dress", apron, stockings and suspenders with no knickers). Leopard print outfits with ears and sometimes tail are reasonably easy to find in mainstream sex shops too, as are Nurse's uniforms (that bear little relation to anything that hospital nurses have ever worn). I'm not sure what men are supposed to wear. Mainstream sex shops tend to cater to men, even the ones like Ann Summers that market themselves at women - and I haven't spent enough time in places like Sh! to see what they sell. Maybe Johnny Depp-style pirate costumes?

When I was very much younger than I am now, I did own a PVC basque thing (NOT the one in the picture) that occasionally got worn during sex if I was feeling naughty. Nowadays, I'm much more likely to be wearing a t-shirt, socks and a duvet. Supposedly, people who wear socks during sex shouldn't be allowed to have any, but I point out that freezing cold feet kill the mood far quicker, especially if I try to warm them on my partner.

I giggle at "clothes for sexual activity don't need to be as hard wearing and are by dint of causing pain in odd positions restrictive of movement". Doesn't agree with my experiences either :) Heh.

[(Anonymous)]

I think my point was that in my circle of friends weather or not they come off immediately on reaching the bedroom or as is more likely during the events following arrival at the bedroom all these kinds of costumes are generally warn for the night out before getting anyone home to bed. The general up shot being that Maids costumes, leopard outfits or PVC basques are more going out clothes than staying in clothes.

[hiddenpaw.livejournal.com]

Woops, Forgot that when I turn on first time in the day I'm no longer logged in to LJ any more.

[ailbhe]

I can't wear underwires with comfort, and I happen to know that my milk ducts do go all the way up from my nipples to my armpits. The fatty tissue surrounding them mirrors this. I expect that for people whose breast tissues stay more or less on their chest, at the front when leaning forwards, underwires are much more of an option.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

My breasts definitely extend under my armpits. In fact, the thing that made me realise I was wearing the wrong bra was the intense pain as my left breast was squashed by my bra against the ribs under my armpit. Tight bra on the top, bone underneath. Ouch!

I thought all breasts of more than a certain size go round the corner? Someone should create a livejournal poll! :)

[ailbhe]

My breasts went around the corner back when they appeared to be A-cups. I have no idea about big ones but I'm reliably informed some big boob owners like underwire.

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

Mine go into my armpits somewhat, and I'm big boobed and prefer underwires. :)

It does depend a LOT on the bra, though. I tend to find the most comfortable ones are the ones with a bit of boning in the side (just behind where the underwire is on the band) also. I suspect because it helps spread the support in that area, so I don't end up with a single wire stabbing me.

[bondagewoodelf.livejournal.com]

Also contains engineering.

This part of the cut text cracked me up ;-)

[lizw.livejournal.com]

I can't get comfortable in a bra without underwires. They always seem to push my breasts in weird directions, whereas with an underwired bra, I can't feel that I'm wearing it at all unless the size is wrong.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

Ah, you see, that's my experience in a decent non-wired bra. There are styles that are totally wrong for me -the ones where the cup does not cover the full breast, so I feel that half of my breast is being squashed while the other half is hanging out unsupported. But the ones that Marks & Spencer currently sell in their Total Support range (designed for larger bosoms, rather than a standard bra that simply comes in a larger size) are great.

I suspect there is a lot more anatomical variation than the makers of bras are willing to admit to. Which is slightly crazy, because many people would willingly pay more money for a well-made bra that fits properly and will last for years. Especially if they could then know that any bra of that style in the right size would fit without needing to try it on.

Bah.

[ailbhe]

I love Bravissimo but no-one is doing the same thing for smaller breasts, under the mistaken belief that they don't need support.

I got phone tech support for my bravissimo bras.

[karen2205]

Yeah, me too re Bravissimo.

I really really like underwired bras. The last time I tried one of their non-wired ones it felt like my breasts were being supported by the shoulder straps and hanging against the fabric rather than the support coming from the band around the back.

But, yeah bras are one of these things where everyone's mileage varies and what works for me won't work for foo and what works for foo won't work for bar.

[lizw.livejournal.com]

I'm lucky there - I can buy any full-cup underwired 38E from any manufacturer and know that it will be fine. I've set eBay up to e-mail me whenever someone lists a cotton one, and I find I can get as many as I need that way.

[syllopsium.livejournal.com]

Whilst I can sympathise, surely your experience is a side effect of where you shopped and your particular shape (underwired bras work for some women, but not others).

You already know that Ann Summers sells tacky underwear that's designed for sex. It's supposed to go on and come off easily and look sufficiently pretty for the (over)price - not to be comfortable and supportive for long periods.

MS are a fundamentally different market.

I'd also question why hand wash only is any more ridiculous for underwear than any other garment. There are day to day clothes that should be easy to wash and comfortable to wear, and occasional use clothes that are a faff to wash and wear. What's wrong with having both?

[haggis.livejournal.com]

Most bras I've seen are supposed to be handwashed, not just the sexy ones. I don't bother but they wear out sooner and there's a risk of killing your washing machine if it has underwires in it and they escape.

[syllopsium.livejournal.com]

isn't the advice if you must put them in a machine to stick them in a fine mesh bag?

[baratron.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I wonder if you deliberately play devil's advocate on livejournal.

I had no choice but to go into the Knickerbox - there wasn't anywhere else immediately obvious to buy a bra from. (I know my way round Wimbledon but only to find the bus stops - wouldn't ever choose to shop there because it has a lousy selection of shops.) I went in knowing that whatever I got from there would be crap. However, I was shocked by how crap it was.

Put it this way. If you go into McDonalds, and pay £2.50 for a burger, fries and Coke, you know it's going to be crap. If you were to go into McDonalds and they tried to charge you £15 for the same meal, you'd feel rightly pissed off. If the shitty bra was £10 normally and £3 in the sale, I'd have felt that I got what I paid for. But at £25 normally and £12 in the sale, I feel offended.

A bra can be "pretty" (a colour other than black, perhaps with a pattern, perhaps with the lace that my skin regards as itchy and uncomfortable but other people like), yet still well-enough made to do the job for which it is intended, i.e. support breasts. The bras in Knickerbox were not even pretty - many of them were in completely bizarre colours that I couldn't imagine any conventional (i.e. non-geek) trendy (fashion-following) heterosexual girl or boy finding attractive. And then on top of that, the combination of poor manufacture and extremely high price was insulting.

I think also that you misplace my offense. I'm not offended for myself. I was in a hurry, it was an emergency bra, it lasted the length of my lecture. I would throw it away but that's too wasteful, so if I have spoons I'll rinse it through and give it to a charity shop. Whatever. The people I feel offended for are Knickerbox's standard clientele - the girls who shop there because they simply don't know better. They haven't been well enough educated in textiles to know that those fabrics are dirt cheap, make you sweat horribly and can cause skin rashes; and they haven't been well enough educated in physics to know that those bras will only "hold up" breasts that can already hold themselves up. They're so used to itchy, uncomfortable, impractical, unwearable female clothing that it hasn't occurred to them that it's possible to have comfortable clothing. They may be so keen on brand names that they overlook decent, well-made garments. I feel sorry for them, and insulted that they have to put up with such tat.

[syllopsium.livejournal.com]

Occasionally I'll play devil's advocate, but not always. I like presenting other angles of an argument though.

Surely, however, awful though shoddy clothing is, it's merely a function of the market. Most people know that M&S provide decent underwear, although I can imagine younger people might think it has a bit of a fuddy duddy image..?

It's sad that many women wear crap bras, but there's enough adverts and information to point them to the better suppliers (although, yes, even M&S and Bravissimo get it wrong at times). Surely, over time, most people realise that some shops are better than others and that this applies to all clothes and footwear..

I think if I Ruled The World, I'd have a top ten list of 'things you have to work out for yourself' (with help from other people). 'Which bra fits' would be in the list for women, as would 'Which products should I use to shave?' (for everyone).

[anansi133.livejournal.com]

There is a growing community of DIY mad scientist types, and the more ambitious ones have dabbled in making their own shoes and other more decorative clothing. Reading your post, I had to wonder how hard it would be to open-source a kit for custom brassiers. It's all well and good for male geeks to adore breasts from afar, but building a better bra would benefit *everybody*.

(Heh. The LJ spell-checker doesn't even recognize the word brassiers.)

The other your story made me think of, was how much easier it is to buy junk food when hungry, than something nutritious. There's more profit to be made selling overpriced junk.

Thanks for this post, it's useful to remember that there are people inside the clothes.

[syllopsium.livejournal.com]

I'm sure I must be imagining it, but I seem to notice many of the female geeks are quite keen on admiring other women's breasts from afar/closeup too ;).

I'm lacking somewhat in the busom department due to being male, but as far as I can see finding the right bra is a fairly personal thing. It's like skincare : whilst there are basic rules that can be followed, the fine tuning is specific to each person.

The analogy with junk food is a good one : not everyone wants the sensible option, they're not prepared to pay the price or they've never been given anything that isn't junk and so accept what they see as the status quo.

It's clearly not economic to run a mainstream bra customisation service, otherwise people would be doing it already.

I did idly wonder if you could have a 'lego' type approach to bras where they're slotted together, but looking at larger sizes the engineering seems fairly formidable. It'd be tricky to just slot bits together without losing structural integrity.

[(Anonymous)]

I've actually gotten enough flab in the chest to qualify as having 'man-boobies'... and I've thought about the construction of a training bra that would fit me. It's given me some appreciation of the engineering involved.

I think 90% of the hard stuff would be getting to the point of printing out a pattern on a printer. Actual construction costs the manufactures a tiny fraction of what they charge the consumer. It's mostly post-manufacturing costs, distributing ad advertising it, that pushes the cost up. A homebrew version could spend a bit more on the construction phase if it didn't have to worry about branding and shelving the stuff.

As for what's economic... if you went by what's available, you wouldn't think it's economic to have air to breathe or water to drink, given what the market is telling us. There's a lot of untapped potential once the financial giants have fallen.

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

I think part of the issue for any bra customizing business is that an awful lot of women are not aware that bras CAN be comfortable, so it wouldn't occur to them to pay customized prices for something that they assume will do the same job as the 10ukp thing they got on sale.

Plus, if you're used to buying (relatively) cheap piece of crap bras and replacing them every 6 months when they fall apart, you probably have a lot of sticker shock looking at even a well-constructed mass-market bra, even though THAT bra, cared for appropriately, will probably happily last you years.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

an awful lot of women are not aware that bras CAN be comfortable

Yeah. This is one of the main points I was trying to make.

A lot of clothing for women simply isn't comfortable or practical. Men's clothes differ little from one season to another, although I do wish the ridiculous trend of trousers worn beneath the bottom would go away. In general, it's pretty much the same - trousers, t-shirts, shirts, ties and jackets don't change shape too much, because men don't change shape much. However, women's clothing varies tremendously in shape from one season to the next depending on what is currently fashionable. It typically lacks pockets, expecting all women to make themselves mugging candidates by carrying their valuables in a handbag instead of very close to their person. And it can be virtually impossible to get trousers that are big enough to get your bottom into for several whole months at a time, even if you frequent traditional, non-fashionable shops like M&S and John Lewis's. When a style that actually suits me comes into fashion, and provided it's not made of scritchy fabric, I'll bulk-buy multiple copies of the same garment in different colours.

I actually do most of my shopping for clothing in North America. I'd like to buy entirely Fairtrade, ethically manufactured garments. But many of the Fairtrade retailers stop at a size 14 or 16. At least in the US and Canada, there's some belief that women come in different shapes and sizes, meaning that clothing for larger, pear-shaped women exists. While it might not be fairly traded, it may well be ethically manufactured if you shop carefully.

[lizw.livejournal.com]

I'd like to buy entirely Fairtrade, ethically manufactured garments. But many of the Fairtrade retailers stop at a size 14 or 16.

Yes, I have that problem, too. M&S seem to be starting to address it, though - I've just bought two Fairtrade cotton T-shirts from their website in a size 20, for keep fit.

[syllopsium.livejournal.com]

I think it's a wider problem than just bras. People in general are not prepared to pay more for garments that will last them years.

I suspect there's also a difference between comfortable enough and properly fitted for most clothes. It's usually fairly obvious with experience to work out that something is actively uncomfortable. Finding the difference between something that is comfortable enough but annoying over time and something that is genuinely fitted is perhaps a different matter.

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

My then-partner bought a kit and instructions for a DIY brassiere. It looked complicated, especially the fitting instructions, but the principle was sound. I don't know if she made it though.