this is NOT me being cryptic!

[baratron]

Today was a very productive day.

You know when you like someone and you know they like you but you're not sure in what way they like you? And it's someone you met very briefly in real life 2 years ago, and thought was attractive then? but you haven't actually seen them since? But you've been communicating online, and you're pretty sure you have a crush on them. So then you see them in real life again and have a proper conversation, and find you are definitely interested in a closer relationship than you have currently? But you're really bad at flirting. And the other person is at least at bad as flirting as you are, but you know they are potentially interested, but not whether they are potentially interested in you. So then you have to do the "um... er..." communication thing and try to communicate your interest, while simultaneously not sounding like a complete mad obsessive who will come round & stalk them if they only want to be friends?

Yeah. That.

Some people would suggest at this point to go for direct communication, like sending an email directly communicating "hello, do you want to be my partner?", but that sets up the possibility of rejection, or the other person feeling pressured to decide, when they might want to go very slowly over a few months and make sure that we really are compatible. And especially whether our disabilities are going to collide and cause stress, which is something you can only work out by actually trying closer-than-just-lj friendship first. And I know how badly my last relationship crashed & burned when I tried to circumvent all these safety checks and went straight for a Relationship with someone that I wasn't already friends with (and now he doesn't even want to be friends, & I can't blame him, because I was a nutcase during the relationship). So it is sensible to take things really slowly, even if it's frustrating. And, imo, and especially considering that crash & burn - if there's a chance of it going either way, it is always better to get a good friendship than a bad Relationship.

But, argh!

Someone needs to come up with some kind of form letter for these situations. Yes, I've seen the Poly Geek Relationship Disclosure Form - it's not really appropriate when you already know someone well enough for both of you to know most of the other person's answers. Maybe I should just take the parts of it that say "If this relationship continues to work well, I would like to do [X, Y & Z] with you".


Hello, you. You know who you are. Clue: if I spent Saturday 10th September 2005 with you, I'm talking about you.

Right now, I am interested in
(*) Friendship
(*) Cuddling/Smooching
(*) Talking (includes ordinary emailing)

If things go well, within a few weeks, I will be interested in:
(*) Starting a long-term Secondary Relationship
(*) Sex, but only if you want to

I don't do short-term Relationships. Any Relationship I start is long-term, in the sense of open-ended, "for as long as it still feels good".

This relationship won't meet my needs if it doesn't provide or allow for:
(*) Friendship
(*) Talking (includes ordinary emailing)

If things continue to go well, within a few years I might want to:
(*) Move in together.
It's pretty unlikely, but vaguely possible.

A long-term relationship would not meet my needs unless it provides or allows for:
(*) Legally marrying my primary partner.

I am
(*) Bisexual.(Kinsey number between e and pi).
(*) pretty much gay/lesbian, both at the same time.

My sex drive is
(*) so little, I feel like I'm missing out.

For sex, if it ever happens, latex is:
(*) Absolutely prohibited
Silicone is:
(*) Required for some activities but not others.
I swear this is actually more cryptic than just spelling it out. God.

I'd prefer a Primary relationship:
(*)with several people, all together
but I ain't gonna get that with my current primary partner. Nor do I feel like dumping him & running off with someones else :)

I could live with a Primary relationship:
(*) with only one person
(*) with several people, separately

I require my primary SOs' secondary relationships to be:
Question is irrelevant owing to raving monogamy of primary partner.

I require my own secondary relationships to be:
(*) people known to and who are willing to talk with my primaries.
(*) people who are NOT trying to end my primary relationships.
Well, duh. Do you think anyone who was ethically non-monogamous would want to get involved with someone who wanted to end their existing relationships?

I have about
( ) Less than 5
( ) 5-10
( ) 10-15
( ) 15-20
( ) More than 20
hours during the work week that I could spend with a new relationship, not including time spent asleep.
Can anyone answer this question? I'm serious! I mean, how long is a piece of string? Answer: it is entirely flexible, depending on how much NRE I have, how busy my existing partners are, whether I am ill, and what the other person wants. *rolls eyes*

Logistical considerations:
(*) I am car-FREE
(*) I share a home with someone else.

Gregariousness:
(*) I prefer small gatherings of people known to me.
(*) I would go out much more often if I wasn't ALLERGIC TO EVERYTHING!

I am "out" about being poly:
(*) To everyone except birth family and clients

PDAs involving ANYONE are acceptable:
(*) Anytime, anywhere
(*) Within the bounds of good taste

Why did I bother filling this in, again?

Comments

[ceno.livejournal.com]

I'm awake but about to be unawake very very shortly. No, you didn't type all this in for nothing :) And good luck :)

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

I know the feeling.

Right now, I'm caught up in the entertainment value of picturing raving monogamy, though. (It's funny in my head.)

"raving" monogamy

[baratron.livejournal.com]

Richard is A Freak. When he got involved with me, his attraction circuits completely shut off to anyone else. He does not notice beautiful people of any gender unless they are me. If I point out a girl I fancy, he has to think about whether he would find her attractive, were he not involved with me. Even then, his aesthetic interests are solely based on physical features I have.

This actually is a bit of a problem considering my lack of sex drive, 'cos he is a normal healthy male in that regard. The options of a) masturbation, b) go look at porn, c) have another girlfriend, and d) have a girl friend that you have sex with are all out, because none of them appeal to him. He only wants to have sex if it involves me. Otherwise he'll just have a nice cup of tea.

I am still fairly amazed at how we manage to make the mono-poly thing work so well, considering how monogamous he is. And yet, at the same time that's why it works, because he's introverted enough that even time spent with me is draining to him, and he needs lots of alone time to go off and work in his workshop, go cycling alone, or code. I can use that time to catch up with my other friends & partners, or go out with them.

Re: "raving" monogamy

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

... that's really weird. He is, in fact, a freak. :) (No masturbation, even? I didn't think that was POSSIBLE for guys. *g*) (I joke, I do not need a string of replies from guys going "I never jerk off!")

I don't think one partner being monogamous is innately a problem to the other one being poly- it's more about security and handling jealousy, and if someone's good with that, then whether or not they want to go out and see other people too isn't particularly relevent.

[redbird]

I more or less fell into two of my ongoing relationships--in each case, other people noticed I was in love before I did, and in each case, the beloved didn't consciously notice how I, or zie, felt until I said something. Okay, "fell into" isn't quite right: I made the conscious choice to say something in each case, and the growth of the friendship was chosen in each case.

In the third, things went backwards by my lights, which is to say that we did a very conventional thing: introduced by mutual friends (who we were both visiting at the time), strong attraction almost immediately, and I actually found myself saying "I'd like to get to know you better" because I needed to know whether this attractive woman and I had enough in common for a relationship beyond staring into each other's eyes in papersky's long room and giggling.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

Most people who know us both thought that Richard & I were going out about 6 months before we actually did. Sometimes I think someone mentioning this earlier could have saved me a lot of stress. Except then, I wouldn't have had the whole personal growth experience of realising I was in love with two people at the same time and realising that meant I was poly.

I rarely look back in hindsight and wish things had gone a different way. The only real exception is my last relationship that I referred to above. I broke every single rule in my book to try to keep the relationship, and then I wondered why it kept going more and more wrong? I was pretty much borderline psychotic for some of it, making very bad paranoid decisions. Given the chance, I would certainly not make those mistakes again.

[ceno.livejournal.com]

Oh and I've got a somewhat-related problem myself... the "I like you and think you're cute, I don't want a relationship with anyone right now but do you want to do something together sometime? thing. Wanting to see people without getting involved or getting anyone hurt. Bloody nightmare.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

That, I think, could work quite well as direct communication. It lays your cards on the table. The only problem would be if the other person was unused to direct communication and assumed that there had to be some other meaning behind it.

[ceno.livejournal.com]

I did think about it after I commented and realised it was probably quite a good way of getting across what I want. But yeah, there's always the worry of misinterpretation, and in the past I've still gotten in trouble even though I've been completely honest.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

People are fundamentally complicated. Broken people are even more complicated. It's difficult to unlearn baggage. If everyone you've ever dealt with does terribly indirect communication where you spend half the relationship trying to work out what they're saying and the other half trying to repair the damage from not having worked it out earlier, it's awfully difficult to then deal with people who tell you honestly & upfront what they want.

A quote I rather like from a Lois McMaster Bujold book is this:
"[...] the late unlamented Tien Vorsoisson was one of those subtle feral parasites who leave their mates scratching their heads and asking Am I crazy? Am I crazy?"

[ceno.livejournal.com]

Tien Vorsoisson sounds a lot like me, or me several years ago :)

Yes, I know exactly what yom mean.

[erik]

Except that that says "Saturday 10th September 2005" and not "Monday 15 August 2005," it looks EXACTLY like something I could have, might have, and probably should have written.

Re: Yes, I know exactly what yom mean.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

You are a silly Erik. You should email the h-l more.

Surely you know I like you? But I don't do long-distance Relationships at all well. My experience is that Trans-Atlantic Relationships lead to hurting & pain for both parties. But close, emotional, somewhat romantic friendship is very possible, and non-hurty.

Re: Yes, I know exactly what yom mean.

[erik]

I think our communications failed at a poor time, long ago.
There was an email list, as I recall. And it sort of ground to a halt (I belive you were also going through a rough emotional patch)...I was feeling particularly unlovely at that time, so I made a wrong assumption.
I don't think I have any idea what your preferred email address is these days; mine is epw lensman org

[rowan-leigh.livejournal.com]

I'm awake and enough so to have understood this but I can't quite seem to relate it to my own experience.

That said, if I were in this position I think I'd start by asking for a phone number and if it's OK to phone her randomly for a chat. Or suggest meeting up for a beer/visit to a museum (the latter should have something to say about compatibility.... ;) )

I am
(*) Bisexual.(Kinsey number between e and pi).
(*) pretty much gay/lesbian, both at the same time.
The first answer amused me. The second is indicative of extreme niftiness.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

I should point out that the Kinsey number between e and pi line was in the original Poly Geek Relationship Disclosure Form. But it is pretty neat :)

There is more about my variable gender in my lj userinfo extension page (http://www.livejournal.com/users/baratron/325349.html#cutid1). I think it's overly pretentious to declare that you're a gay man trapped in a woman's body. But I have days when my internal gender matches my external plumbing, and days when it really doesn't. The part of me that is attracted to men is only attracted to girly boys. Traditional manly men? Eeek! *shudder*

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

This reply has no point whatsoever except to say: mmm. geeky girly boys. (Geeky gothy girly boys are even better.)

[otterylexa.livejournal.com]

This works pretty well as direct communication.

I think I understand what you're talking about with trying to communicate your interest without coming on too strong. I'm not in that situation of course, right now, but I've been there in the past, and I'll probably be there in the future.

I'd be very surprised if your parents haven't worked out you're poly, although I suppose it is possible.
I laughed at the kinsey number between e and pi. ;^)

I'm completely in the dark about who this mystery person is. I'll obviously have to phone you tomorrow to find out.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

It was much easier for us, because we knew each other's other partners reasonably well and could get them to relay messages ;) If we hadn't sat down and done the Direct Communication thing when we did, Richard would've told you, 'cos he was sick of my "do you think she likes me?" weebling :)

I don't know about my parents, really. I think I've told my mum that Richard & I have an open relationship, but I don't know whether she actually realises that I have more than one partner because it's how I do love, or if she thinks that one boyfriend + one girlfriend = bisexual monogamy (eurgh!). My dad is remarkably clueless and/or deliberately head-in-sand when it comes to my sexuality. I don't even think he knows I'm bi - I certainly haven't told him. Can you imagine me sitting down and telling my dad anything personal about myself?

He reckons that you can "always tell" when someone is gay. This is based entirely on my cousins Lorraine and Bobby, where Lorraine is the kind of uber-butch lesbian with very very short hair, a moustache & dungarees, while Bobby is the kind of super-fluffy cuddly plump gay man with an interest in cooking, no interest in sports, a high-pitched voice, and lots of female friends. Yeah, ok. We know two people that are stereotypically gay, so therefore all gay people are stereotypical! I had to point out that he knew my dear friend John for 4 years before John came out, and while I think I always knew at the back of my mind, my dad was utterly shocked. He was even a bit surprised about Tim & Peter, although as soon as he found out he started going on about how obvious it was from how they dress. I was like, er, Tim wears jeans & t-shirts. So does Richard. Um... My dad's logic bears so little relation to actual logic. Mind you, that's true for both my parents ;)

I am sure I mentioned this person to you very very recently, like the last time you were here! I met her at BiCon in London, you met her at BiCon last, briefly, apparently.

[otterylexa.livejournal.com]

I don't remember partners relaying messages... :) *laughs at the mental image of Richard getting sick of the weebling*

It occurs to me that they probably couldn't tell the difference between how you relate to me and how you relate to Tim & Peter. Come to that, I'm not sure I can.

Erm, right. Let's not go any further into your Dad's logic, shall we.

I think I know who you're talking about, and if so, she was on my shortlist of people you might have been talking about... Either way, I'm going to phone you soon, as I am now back... Lunch was good. We met Hatty's bf for the first time, and got on quite well with him.

[okoshun.livejournal.com]

Yeah. That.

You mean that not everyone goes though this? I thought it was only natural. I'm like that. epi_lj's like that...

[epi-lj.livejournal.com]

I don't know that I'd say that I'm like that per se. I tend to decide fairly early on that the person is most definitely not interested in me, and then proceed to push them away in an effort to not be creepy.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

That is because you are a silly If. I believe I have stated on multiple occasions that I would be interested in a relationship with you if we lived close enough to make such things practical, and you still tried to push me away!

Did I tell you the story of the first person who ever asked me out?

[epi-lj.livejournal.com]

I don't think you've told me that one yet, no.

[okoshun.livejournal.com]

I think there's some element of that in you - probably not as much..I'm more like baratron in that respect, but at the same time, I'm like you in that I discount the fact that the person would be ever interested in me and would more likely find me too fat and revolting, so I just hide and say nothing and push any interest out of my mind because *obviously* I don't want to make the object of my interest feel uncomfortable.

[barakta]

FWIW the email thing can work in it's own way. That is kind of how I got together with kim although it was a few months between the email and the actual serious "what the hell, lets see if it works" thing. I didn't know whether we'd get along longer term or not. We were also constrained by IRLness as I refuse where possible to make make-break-scary decisions about relationships by online methods... I'll admit to being wary f starting a relationship I couldn't be sure would work as I don't do 'flings' and didn't want to lose a friendship and obvious compatibility. As it happened we were so far lucky.

I liked the between e and pi value for kinsey rating, I'd want to steal it if it weren't inaccurate for me.

[nitoda]

Hi. Only just seen this, referenced from your later post. Don't really know what to say ... you seem to have garnered some useful comments now though so maybe the urgent need is less urgent now.
Hope you manage to find a way forward and that you are both happy with what you find happening ...

[lindsical.livejournal.com]

It makes sense but too much sense at the moment because I just woke up a short while ago.

A little light reading

[ailbhe]

Well jeez. I know about this enough I think to comment. I mean, two years after I stopped sleeping with X for legal reasons but we remained friends, he KISSED ME and my heart went SQUEEEEBOOOOOM and I managed to convince myself that he wasn't really interested and that he'd meant something else by it. And he *couldn't have* but I was so sure - AUGH.

Anyway, if I ever Go Poly it will be because of him, and it will be nearly fucking impossible. But I love him to pieces.

[mattp.livejournal.com]

Yes, I get that occasionally. Usually the fear of rejection prevents me from trying, though I'm trying to get over that.

[ludy]

i think getting closer could work - though it would have to be very slowly